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DevCentral > Weblogs > Lori MacVittie - Two Different Socks
 Why Flash can't win the Web application war
posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 4:35 AM

As an application delivery solution provider focused on securing, accelerating, and optimizing web applications, we pay a lot of attention to web application development trends. Languages, environments, and technologies are all of significant interest because in many cases the decisions regarding development affect the security and performance of applications deployed in production.

AJAX-based applications, for example, can have a significant impact on performance of the application and on the network (and vice-versa), so we pay attention to its adoption and use and are always looking for new ways to secure and accelerate applications using the technology.

So naturally we discussed the recent news from Google regarding Native Client and were similarly interested in the results of Evans Data recent development survey which indicated that 61% of developers surveyed were using JavaScript. Which led me to more research on development issues and right back into the war for Web application dominance.

code small Back in August, Stephen Shankland discussed "the Web app war" but came to no conclusion except that the war would continue. That's safe to say, I think, and a nice neutral position to take.

Given the extensive use of JavaScript and HTML around the web, I think it's safe to say that at the moment it's definitely winning. I'll go even further and say it's likely to continue winning. Here's why...

When most folks discuss Web application technologies they discuss it in terms of capabilities and the technology. Can it easily handle audio? Video? Graphics? What's the environment like? I'm not ignoring these very important facets, but I'm also not ignoring what everyone else seems to ignore - the business of web application development.

Flash is awesome stuff, it really is. But Adobe, despite its great business acumen, has always failed to recognize the impact of cost on adoption of development environments and languages. The software giant continues to price its products out of reach for everyone but the most dedicated hobbyists and enterprise markets.

A college kid or general hobbyist is just not going to be able (or willing) to afford Adobe's products. 

That's important because it is generally the next generation of developers who drive the revolutions development. They have the time, the energy, and the passion to learn new skills and environments, and they do. They experiment, they innovate, they learn and then they take those newfound skills into the world of IT and share it. This eventually generates a lot of forward momentum and galvanizes young developers into pushing for this new technology whenever possible. Web 2.0 adoption was, and is, driven primarily by "digital natives", the next generation. The same holds true in the world of development. It is the next generation that drives the "next big thing."

What they don't have is cash. Unfortunately Adobe expects quite a bit of it if you want to develop Flash applications. Yeah, yeah, I know the Flex SDK is free. But the development environment is not, and open source alternatives have been slow to come to market because Adobe is not completely open with many of the specifications for its underlying technology.

Even Microsoft, who traditionally offered only discounts to students and hobbyists for its development environments, came around and realized that in the war for Web apps you have to win the "hearts and minds" of developers, and to do that you have to give them the chance to play with the technology. For free. Microsoft and Adobe were essentially the last two holdouts in the "pay to play with our technology" game  (IBM had already adopted Eclipse and moved to offering free, community editions of most of its popular Web application development tools and platforms) and Microsoft recognized it needed to attract and hook the next generation and hobbyists so it began offering up express editions for free. That left Adobe to stand alone, unwavering in its decision to charge handily for its development environments.

Couple this with the fact that HTML and AJAX really need no environment. Notepad (or vi if you're me) will more than suffice for developing applications. If that's not enough, there are plethora of free editors and environments available; no charge at all.

With Microsoft's Silverlight nipping at Adobe's heels with its ability to easily integrate video and audio and manipulate graphics, Adobe needs to reevaluate its strategy in the War for the web if it wants to gain ground. But historical evidence suggests it won't.

Therefore, Flash is unlikely to ever "win" the war of the Web application. The technology will continue to maintain its entrenched position at the apex of Adobe's hill, while the rest of the combatants go around them and continue to pick up more troops.

 

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12/10/2008 5:25 AM
Gravatar Have you guys tried Silverlight at all? Please make the effort to build a non trivial app in it and then maybe come back publishing an article to bash it ;-)
Anon

12/10/2008 5:48 AM
Gravatar Flex Builder 3 is free for students:
https://freeriatools.adobe.com/flex/
friism

12/10/2008 6:06 AM
Gravatar great article.
Ciprian

12/10/2008 6:41 AM
Gravatar @Anon No one is bashing Flash. Flash is awesome stuff that doesn't get the visibility it should because of Adobe's decisions.

@Friism That's cool, but it's still not Flash, it's Flex, and there are differences.

Lori MacVittie

12/10/2008 7:18 AM
Gravatar @Lori: True, Flash and Flex are a bit different. However, you're talking about technologies, and Flash and Flex are the same techlology (the Flash Player). It's the authoring environment that's different. And you're talking about application development here, and that's what Flex is designed for (Flash is less application-oriented and more animation/presentation oriented).
Andy Herrman

12/10/2008 8:01 AM
Gravatar Oh, and as for development environments, FlashDevelop is wonderful. In many cases I actually prefer it over FlexBuilder. And it's opensource. :)

Really, the barrier to entry for developing applications that run in the Flash player is pretty minimal these days.
Andy Herrman

12/10/2008 8:19 AM
Gravatar @Andy

True, it's a distinction in the dev environment, not the technology.

I'd loved to be proven wrong and see Flash gain some ground. I'd also really like to see some of Adobe's awesome server side technology take off (they have some sweet doc workflow tools that just don't get the attention they deserve). But I don't see either happening and it always comes back to pricing and, for the server side tools, marketing/awareness. When new developers think of Flash they head out to Adobe, check out the "oh my god I can't afford that" pricing, and find an alternative. And that isn't always Flex, because it just isn't as visual and "sexy" as the Flash environment.
Lori MacVittie

12/10/2008 9:14 AM
Gravatar The trick is not to get developers but to get designers and design-developers and UX people.

The future of RIA apps is not about WHAT but about HOW.

I.E. the feature richness is less important than the richness of the feature.

Also you are missing one key element here.

The richness i.e. interactivity, video, music, animation part is simply not available WITHOUT a framework such as flash. So it doesn't matter that people can do business app kind of experiences in javascript but that there is a need for much richer experiences.

Hulu.com cannot exist without Flash, YouTube cannot exist without flash.

Graphs cant be shown properly without flash (yes you can use more tedious frameworks to develop in but they are far from the experiences you can provide in flash/flex)
Thomas Petersen

12/10/2008 9:20 AM
Gravatar "And that isn't always Flex, because it just isn't as visual and "sexy" as the Flash environment."

That's a weird comment. Compare flex to any other RIA framework out there and nothing even comes close.

Also since when did Adobe solve piracy? Their products are available as any other product out there. And again you are looking at this from the wrong angle. The developer part of flash have never been the important part, it's the interaction/design part that's important. Microsoft expect people to use the expression suite, well good luck, it's not even available on Mac where 90% of all good designers recides today.
Thomas Petersen

12/10/2008 9:25 AM
Gravatar I've previously wondered occasionally, why is there no open-source alternative to Flash? Why is there no popular open-source browser plugin with similar capabilities? Why was there nothing competing with Flash until Silverlight came along?

But then I realized, it's because open source developers have a different goal: they understand that the future of the web is not in "plugins", that plugins are inherently non-standard and not built into most web browsers by default. Open source developers don't _want_ a new plugin like Flash, they want to build apps to the fullest using the standard technologies, and these are JavaScript, the DOM, and SVG. (Internet Explorer remains the only browser requiring a plugin for SVG support...)
Steve

12/10/2008 10:27 AM
Gravatar >> Notepad (or vi if you're me) will more than suffice for developing applications.

That sorta beats the whole argument of needing an IDE to develop flash >_>
Besides, kids aren't ashamed or afraid of pirating stuff off of bit-torrent.
Leo Horie

12/10/2008 10:36 AM
Gravatar @Leo

Heh. Good points - both of them! You win teh Internets today. ;-)
Lori MacVittie

12/10/2008 12:10 PM
Gravatar Coincidentally, I was discussing this over coffee last night. Came to the conclusion that Flash will remain popular as long as it is easy to make unlicensed copies of the tools. There may be effective low- or no-cost alternatives, but many people enjoy the perceived value of using an expensive software suite at no-cost. Adobe is taking the Microsoft Word approach of the 1990s, where they turn a blind eye to unlicensed copies in order to cement their formats as de-facto standards. Schools are already regularly (and foolishly) teaching Flash technologies for their students understanding of web development. After several more years of allowing unlicensed copies, Adobe will be in a position to turn the screws on users, when they feel their market position is secured. Either upsell successful business start-ups who have established their business on the Flash framework, or they send BSA goons out to extort settlements from businesses using unlicensed copies.
Matthew

12/10/2008 12:25 PM
Gravatar @Matthew

I admit I did *not* even consider that option, but once it was brought it, it did make sense and you're right, it's not a new tactic at all.

Great points - glad you took the time to point it out. In a few years, I may be eating a big helping of crow!

Lori MacVittie

12/10/2008 3:46 PM
Gravatar No war. ;-)

Seriously, there's no need for a conflict. It's sort of strange, the way this article is phrased.

Is the core of your concern "Can highschool students afford Flash?" If so, and then if "flash" means strictly the visual authoring tool in Creative Suite 4, then countless schools already do... it's quite popular:
http://www.adobe.com/education/purchasing/

But you're also talking about writing HTML or XAML in a text editor, independent of Adobe Flash CS4. This is what people do with Flex, for free, anyway:
https://freeriatools.adobe.com/flex/

The above link talks about education, but you can create SWF via a text editor through many many means now, regardless of whether you're in school. And this doesn't even touch on all the popular websites which create SWF or server records.

Flash already does stuff out in the world that lots of other companies say they'll try to do. Available today, for free, or for cheap, or for value-returned. Lots of options.

jd/adobe

John Dowdell

12/10/2008 10:17 PM
Gravatar As others have hinted at, comparing Flash to Silverlight is like comparing apples and oranges. A fairer comparison based on featureset would be Flex and Silverlight.

In your discussion, you do not mention the *key* thing that developers and managers are concerned with when deciding which right web app technology to use: Installed userbase.

The Flex installed userbase is the same as the flash 9/10 player installed userbase and is over 95% of all browsers in all regions (http://www.adobe.com/products/player_census/flashplayer/version_penetration.html).
Si

12/11/2008 12:57 AM
Gravatar I work in a company that is using Flex to build a big management software for municipalities. IMHO it is a very bad choice: Actionscript is a very poor language and Flex is full of bugs. It is also much less nice-looking than HTML+CSS if you use just Flex (without Flash).

I think that it's better to use a good Javascript-based framework to develop RIAs, and to limit the use of Flash to those objects that can't be done otherwise (like showing videos). Yes, Youtube couldn't exist without Flash, but it is *not* developed in Flash/Flex. It just uses Flash to play videos, which is a completely different thing.

I can even imagine of some Javascript library that abstracts the concept of video/chart/audio and plays it using Flash/Java/Silverlight based on what's detected on the user's browser.
Luciano

12/11/2008 1:31 AM
Gravatar seriously?

flex and air become desktop apps that work cross-platform.

when javascript and html work cross-browers, let alone cross platform..

don't count Adobe out; their stuff is not flawless, but it is _very_ capable.
japherwocky

12/11/2008 4:23 AM
Gravatar you've got a bad developer if a commissioned flex or flash application doesn't exactly look like the the given screendesign. and that part "It is also much less nice-looking than HTML+CSS if you use just Flex (without Flash)" shows that you're lacking knowledge about one of the core features of flex and probably the flash platform itself: programmatic and graphical skinning.
Marc

12/11/2008 5:11 AM
Gravatar I don't know why folks continue to talk about which RIA technology or path is going to "win the war." None of them will ever gain complete control over the web application market: just as there is no single web browser, there will be no single web application technology.

Good developers will use the technology that makes the most sense for a particular application. Flex is a great choice if you're building a web application that has a lot of dynamic visual elements or involves a fair amount of multimedia, while HTML/CSS/JavaScript is quite sufficient for applications that are text-centric.

The key thing to look out for is whether these technologies continue to evolve, and they all seem to be doing that (though at different rates and in different ways).
Brian Swartzfager

12/11/2008 6:06 AM
Gravatar @Marc

did you really try to use it? Adobe itself says that the first goal of Flex 4 is to make it really skinnable, since current support is very bad. It's full of bugs and limitations. We changed approach and now we're just using CSS, which is not CSS really, it's missing the "C" part. It's just a bad copy of CSS applied to HTML.

I'm not lacking that knowledge, sorry.
Luciano

12/11/2008 6:23 AM
Gravatar I haven't done any Flash work for some time... the old Macromedia Flash environment was so terrible to work in, it was just frustrating to develope anything with Flash. Maybe it's better now, but I've moved on to other things. If I need to do something Flash-esque, I'll use Silverlight.
Kris

12/11/2008 7:45 AM
Gravatar I can't accept your some points on flash technology. We have to wait for few months to know about how a normal internet user accepts RIA - the technogy behind it. Always AJAX rockz, but in future flash will penetrate RIA. may be silverlight,javafx slow down its spread among RIA developers. let me wait see the RIA battle ...
Vijay

12/11/2008 1:59 PM
Gravatar I usually estimate triple time to do Flash work over any other web development. My estimates do not include design, just programming.

Flash just isn't geared toward "non-flashy" functionality.
Kenny

12/12/2008 4:04 AM
Gravatar @Kenny

I really was focused on the business model aspects of this argument, but you do bring up a good point. The full Flash development environment, which is *very, very* sweet, is very much geared toward Flash/visual effect design/layout and not programmatic functionality.

Triple the time...Wow.



Lori MacVittie

12/14/2008 7:16 PM
Gravatar @Luciano, the goal of Flex 4 may be to make Flex easier to skin but please tell me where Adobe says that Flex is not really skinnable. While you're at it, you can point me to the skinning-related bugs in the Flex bug database because I've been using Flex for a long time and I've never come across any skinning bugs. Flex skinning could be easier but it works fine and if you don't like it, you can just use CSS to style your components in Flex. Or you can use the open-source Degrafa library in Flex and make your apps look really nice. It really does sound like you don't know what you're talking about if you can't make your app look exactly like your initial Photoshop/Illustrator desing.

@Lori, this whole article is confused. You seem to be talking about web apps so the discussion should be based on Adobe's web application framework (Flex), not the Flash IDE. You say that you can code HTML and AJAX in Notepad which of course is just as true of Flex. Which of Adobe's technologies are not open enough to allow the development of open-source tools? Flex is open-source and anyone can view the full SWF spec and build their own Flash Player if they like now too. And your figure that 61% of developers use Javascript. Is that web application developers or just developers? You don't say and their is a big difference in the context of this article.
Darren

12/15/2008 4:09 AM
Gravatar also online casual games are all done with flash, and with new flash 10 it will continue to dominate there...very unluckiley flash would be "losing" the war anytime soon...
G S

5/20/2009 11:21 PM
Gravatar If you're building web apps with a text editor, you're a freaking moron. Flex is rising, and will continue to rise, to the top of the RIA heap. Microsoft can't implement themselves out of a bag of crap. Wake up dirtbag.
Frankie Cordoba

4/8/2009 12:06 AM
Gravatar I still dont understand why its grade is not so far considered
prakash
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