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DevCentral > Weblogs > Lori MacVittie - Two Different Socks
 How Reality Blew the Cloud Away at Interop
posted on Thursday, May 21, 2009 6:30 AM

As a telecommuter – and one that lives in that technological mecca of the midwest, Green Bay – I don’t often get the chance to talk face to face with, well, anyone. Being conscripted into booth duty at Interop this week means I get to talk to people with real problems and with ones that can quickly bring anyone with their head in the clouds back down to earth.

Imagine if you will an application. A real, honest to goodness client-server application. Not web-based, but client-server; like the kind we wrote confusedin Delphi and Visual Basic back in the 90s. Now imagine that this application is used by customers in places across the country with names you’ve never heard of. It’s pervasive but more than that it’s critical – and not just to the business but to people’s very lives.

Now certainly this application could move into the cloud, right? The cloud is not prejudiced in any way against client-server applications; it’s not as if “The Cloud” requires web-based interfaces. Certainly this application could be moved into a cloud environment for disaster recovery and overdraft protection (which was the intention) without needing any massive changes.

Here’s the rub: the IP addresses of the server, a critical component to be sure, are hardcoded. 

Yeah. That’s what I said while standing at the whiteboard trying to figure out how a traditional global load balancing infrastructure was going to deal with that let alone how something like “the cloud” - that assumes a certain level of dynamism – would handle it.


THE LEGACY of LEGACY

This particular conversation is a good reminder that “the cloud” just isn’t going to be the right choice for all applications. More than that, the “cloud model” itself isn’t necessarily going to be a good fit for all applications. This isn’t about control or security or compliance or features – it’s about decisions that were made 10, 20, and in some cases, 40 years ago. Decisions that, once made, cannot easily be unmade no matter how grand it might be to do so or much sense technically it may make.

This is really about reality and about the fact that organizations aren’t green fields; they can’t just start from scratch and build out an infrastructure that’s going to be all puppies and rainbows in the cloud. In order for organizations to move to a cloud model – or even put their applications in an off-premise cloud – there are real changes that need to be made. Changes that need to be made in such a way that those applications that cannot move to the cloud can still be supported even as new applications are running in new environments and taking advantage of new architectures.

It’s about the legacy of, well, legacy applications. Applications written using technology that has long since been discarded, is no longer supported and, in some cases, may not be able to be modified for lack of skills or tools. Applications for which no one can justify the cost and effort of “modernizing” but that are critical and must remain available and secure and able to be integrated with new, cloud-based applications.

Some applications aren’t going to run in a cloud no matter where that cloud may physically exist. They aren’t. But these applications still need to be supported by the infrastructure and co-exist in an environment that might also need to support cloud-based applications.

It is this very scenario – a hybrid environment supporting both legacy and modern applications – that is where we are really headed. Because even if some day we’ll end up with everyone’s data center in the cloud, we still have to get there. And getting there means we’re going to spend some time – probably many, many years – in a world where cloud and traditional infrastructures intermingle and exist in the same space.

That’s going to mean that network and application network infrastructure has to support both types of applications at the same time. It’s going to have to enable a more careful move from one model to another while maintaining the availability and security of legacy applications. It’s going to have to be able to adapt to a data center in which multiple types of applications are delivered over the same network, and be able to deal with that in a way that’s efficient without increasing complexity.

Yes, what I’m saying in a nutshell is that Infrastructure 2.0 is going to have to be backward compatible because it’s going to be a long time before we see “pure” cloud architectures.

That’s assuming we ever will. And even though we’re in Vegas where the mood of gambling seems to infect everything, that’s not a bet I’m willing to take.

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5/21/2009 6:49 AM
Gravatar Lori,

A client-server application with hardcoded IP addresses and other 10-year-old legacy features is going to have trouble being moved /anywhere/, let alone to a cloud infrastructure. I'm not sure that's a enough reality to blow the entire cloud away though?

Cloud Environments are dynamic environments, much more so than fixed deployments in datacenters that don't move. You absolutely do need an 'application network infrastructure' right in the middle of your cloud to address this when it becomes a problem.

Owen
Owen

5/21/2009 7:38 AM
Gravatar I'd be curious to see which applications can't find a way to accommodate a cloud environment. I wonder how many of these client/server environments are feeling pressure to do so? We are very interested in the process with which enterprise environments are pressured to accommodate the market place. The WiFi market has challenged the playing field and while it would be nice if some of the enterprise environments are able to avoid re-writing their infrastructure, but the market will decide.
Rob Mendez

5/21/2009 8:02 AM
Gravatar Legacy applications should not be the target of cloud computing. To really take advantage of the cloud, software should be built specifically for it. When I first started coding in the early 80's, my first project was a port from and old Burrough's mainframe to the new IBM 3090. The code I was migrating was written in 1965, the year I was born. The code was written to process work in 8k pages because that is all the mainframe could handle at the time. For some reason, somebody decided that all we had to do was move this old code to the all mighty IBM 3090 and life would be good. Guess what? It was still slow because it was still breaking things into very small chunks and moving 8k at a time.

Well now it is 2009 and people still have this same mindset. Whether it is hardcoded IPs, security flaws hidden behind on-premise firewalls, or whatever the case may be, we still insist on moving legacy to newer target platforms with little to no regard of the ramifications.

Build new stuff in the cloud. Legacy is for legacy platforms!
Mike Kavis

5/21/2009 8:13 AM
Gravatar All great points.

I think the best way to go is going to be to create a green field environment and migrate internally what can be/should be migrated. Perhaps that's part of where we failed with SOA - we tried to do it all in a mixed environment that made it difficult to standardize internally and put in place the processes/requirements necessary for success.

I like @Mike's approach: build new stuff in the cloud, leave the legacy alone. Ensure infrastructure can support both so you aren't essentially supporting two different data centers and can maximize the infra resources and one day maybe the funds will be available to rewrite/rearchitect the legacy apps.

Lori
Lori MacVittie

5/21/2009 8:17 AM
Gravatar @Owen

I know you guys (Zeus) aren't exhibiting at Interop but you may be around/have ears but looking around the focus at Interop has really moved back to NMS/networking. There's very little talk of cloud even in the booths - it's mostly about TCO and business value and ROI.

So is reality blowing away "cloud" in general? No. But at Interop, the reality of folks just trying to solve problems and stay within budget seems to be much more important than cloud in general. It just isn't a huge theme - at least not on the show flow.

And I agree on the application networking comment. Absolutely essential no matter what the architectural model moving forward.

Lori
Lori MacVittie

5/21/2009 9:15 AM
Gravatar

Well now it is 2009 and people still have this same mindset. Whether it is hardcoded IPs, security flaws hidden behind on-premise firewalls, or whatever the case may be, we still insist on moving legacy to newer target platforms with little to no regard of the ramifications.

Build new stuff in the cloud. Legacy is for legacy platforms!


10 PRINT
20 GOTO 10

"Build new stuff"? That costs money and when such an effort is championed, it typically entails a colossal boondoggle that enriches marketing reps and offshore personnel recruiters.

So at best, we stick a shiny front-end on systems built in age of computing antiquity.

Worse, all of our "subject matter experts" are graying and with outsourcing and cutbacks to get "lean and mean", means most of the knowledge of the guts of the legacy systems resides in foreign bodyshop parts that are shuffled around at whim, in interest of the offshore coder factory lords.
Naum

5/21/2009 9:47 AM
Gravatar Lori - this finance geek doesn't understand completely what Cloud Computing is, but I gotta tell you this is a great post which even I could "get." Makes me think back to my gig at (un-named Fortune 500) which had SO many old legacy systems that my job consisted mainly of tying results from 3 data sources together and praying that they all matched up.... with a 10-ish year plan underway to eventually get the whole company over to one SAP platform... Good luck. Hope you're having fun meeting folks at #interop! Keep tweeting!! Heather
Heather Richtfort

5/21/2009 10:00 AM
Gravatar Lori - unfortunately I couldn't attend Interop this year in Vegas; I was speeaking at SysCon's Cloud Computing Conference and Expo in Prague this week. What an irony!

Zeus weren't exhibiting at Interop, but if you'd stepped over to the Joyent booth (near the big 'Cloud Computing' sign on the show floor), you might have met some of our guys there.

Owen
Owen

5/21/2009 12:55 PM
Gravatar Lori, I am confused at this article. I see you put obstacles in front based on limitations of known (to you) technology. As any geek I am sure you've seen Matrix, right? Join us and take the red pill. Life outside traditional data-center matrix is live and kicking.

You are right however that CFOs do not write blank checks anymore for overpriced architecture. They are more interested in ROI and replacing CapEx with OpEx wherever they can. In the past everyone thought in terms of "no one gets fired for buying <insert market leader name here>", while now they are looking at ROI past the 3 year period, past the 6 year period. Like in chess we are learning to look few moves ahead. Let's say we have a 3 year turnaround in physical equipment. On one had you have standard hardware + software solution (runs in virtual engines, cloud) and on another you have specialized hardware solution. You probably have about 20-80 ratio of hardware vs. software investment with first and 100-0 in second. When 3 years come around, the refurbishment will cost 20-0 and 100-0 respectfully. When 6 years come around, you are looking at another 20-0 and 100-0. So after third buy you end up with 20+80+20+20 = 140 vs. 100+100+100 = 300. And I am just talking ratio here. I could probably say that 20+80+20+20 investment will get you quadruple performance increase from initial investment and for same increase you would probably be looking into 100+150+200=450 (or more) in traditional specialized hardware investment. Except vendor B CFOs everyone else would realize financial benefits of first solution. (All else being equal - that is that both solutions provide same type of functionality.)

Just my 2 cents.
Izzy

5/21/2009 3:24 PM
Gravatar @Izzy

The point with the IP address problem is that the addresses are hard-coded in the client. Because of that, global load balancing is not an option as GSLB assumes *it* will decide what address to resolve an endpoint to.

The point of that scenario is that it was a reminder that some applications are built such that they cannot feasibly be "cloud enabled", regardless of where the cloud resides. Not necessarily the one mentioned, but others.

It's a set up scenario - a reminder that we've made some really odd choices in the past that *may* make cloud-enabling some applications impossible. But as enterprises are certainly going to want to take advantage of the cloud - external and internal - that data center infrastructure will need to support both models simultaneously.

@Owen - I did stop by and say hello, sorry you couldn't make it as it would have been nice to see you at the "gathering" CoyotePoint put together yesterday (very informal, but fun).

Lori
Lori MacVittie

5/21/2009 11:53 PM
Gravatar Lori, I am somewhat in agreement with you. However cloud is more like a rocket. If you have the ability to pack everything (omnea mea mecum porto) you need and don't depend on infrastructure (past the CPU/network(L3 max)/disk/memory/cooling you know the basics)you have the advantage as a customer. What I mean is that with so much capabilities in ADCs one should stop thinking of them as infrastructure but part of application. As such when you develop you need to think of portability. You need to figure out what will anchor you down and what you can easily take into virtual/cloud environment regardless of infrastructure provided. Basically what I am trying to say is that ADCs definitely outgrew being infrastructure a while ago (with advent of such things as iRules).
Izzy

5/22/2009 9:48 AM
Gravatar Just wanted to add to the notion "some good ol' client-server apps just wont be available in the cloud".. You are absolutely right. Its the same story I ehard over the last 10 years..
"Is your application we-based?"
"-Absolutely, you just have to download a small plug-in from Citrix"... In the future cloud world - these "web-based" apps will not survive. Actually, they are so entrenched and a lot of them are critical with thousands of users trained - they will actually prohibit the expansion and innovation of the cloud computing as well. IMHO, these legacy apps must be converted to become truly web enabled and cloud-aware. **Disclaimer, I work for a start up that does just that - automatically converts your siebels, peoplesofts and VB based apps into the cloud.
Steve Yaskin

5/22/2009 12:41 PM
Gravatar Naum's comments about shuffling bodyshops at whim suddenly makes me want to draw an analogy between cloud computing and software programming talent pool services...

Cloud-developer shops? Instead of hiring specific developers to provide specific coding services, you outsource the project to a shop overseas and they scale up, scale down, and map resources as needed.

Security issues?
Control issues?
Ownership issues?
Contract management issues?

Hmm. Could be an interesting analogy to ponder indeed.

Rick

6/26/2009 2:51 AM
Gravatar Forklifts, Rip and Replace, and Other IT Fairy Tales
Lori MacVittie
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